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Home > Austin Music Source > Archives > 2009 > April > 17 > Entry
What’s up with Stubb’s?
Reader Gary Etie, who knows more about the city permit-pulling process than just about anyone (he makes sure the Levi’s/ Fader Fort, among other private party sites, is up to code at SXSW every year), says that according to its 1996 building permit, Stubb’s is classified as a restaurant and therefore the 70 dB code that shut down live music at Freddie’s Place technically applies.
In a recent comment to this post, however, Etie says that Stubb’s could easily fix that. “For Stubb’s, and other restaurants in the Central Business District (CBD), the solution is going to be relatively easy,” Etie wrote. “Because Stubb’s in is in the (CBD) they would not be required to get a Conditional Use Permit Approval from the Planning Commission…”
Here is a transcript of a City Council meeting in March where the restaurant/ cocktail lounge classification is discussed. (Scroll down a bit.)
Stubb’s co-owner Jeff Waughtal says his lawyer has been in the process of getting the 2,100-capacity Waller Creek Ampitheater classified as a music venue as part of renovation plans. “It never was an issue before,” said Waughtal, who said he was under the impression that because a greater percentage of Stubb’s business is as a music venue, rather than a restaurant, the decibel limit would remain at 85 dB. But to make sure, he said “we’re in the process of addressing that.”
As for the $5 million expansion of Stubb’s into a 4,000-capacity outdoor venue, with a companion new 1,400- capacity indoor venue, Waughtal said he and his architects are still working on a site plan to present to the city. The expansion plans were first announced more than two years ago.
Waughtal went before the city planning commission April 14 seeking city approval to not only build a 35,753 square foot indoor venue on the corner of 9th and Red River Streets, but to add 6,445 square feet to the outdoor venue and 4,295 square feet to the existing barbecue restaurant. The commission recommended approving the plan, which the City Council is expected to hear on Thursday.
The eastern part of the property along Waller Creek, which was formerly a dairy, is currently in a flood plain, which has made the process much more difficult, Waughtal said. “If the Waller Creek tunnel project goes ahead, we won’t have to worry about a lot of these things in six years.”
But the bigger Stubb’s won’t wait that long. Waughtal said the first stage of construction will be the new 1,400-cap. venue. The earliest work on that would start is at least 18 months from now, he said.
Comments
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By Tom
April 17, 2009 3:17 PM | Link to this
This is the Chinese Democracy of Austin development projects.
By perrymustgo!
April 17, 2009 3:19 PM | Link to this
God Bless live music and Stubbs!……if you can not handle the live music, move to dallas or houston…we can not please everyone all of the time! double glass windows may not be a bad idea!
By gary etie - austincitypermits.com
April 17, 2009 3:53 PM | Link to this
For Stubb’s, and other restaurants in the Central Business District (CBD), the solution is going to be relatively easy. Because Stubb’s in is in the (CBD) they would not be required to get a Conditional Use Permit Approval from the Planning Commission, like all CS-1 Zoned, . . For Threadgill’s, and other Restaurants outside the CBD, but who are fortunate enough to have CS-1 Zoning (required for Cocktail Lounge or Liquor Sales Uses) it will require more work, if the only solution the City comes up with is for them to apply for Conditional Use Permit Approval, from the Planning Commission, for Cocktail Lounge Use, which is required, even with CS-1 Zoning, anywhere outside of the CBD.
For Restaurants outside the CBD, without CS-1 Zoning, your looking at a Zoning Change to CS-1, never easy, and a new Building Permit, for a Change of Use to Cocktail Lounge.
That is not always an easy path, under current circumstances, (and that may be my understatement for the year. Hard to top that!)
Hopefully, this will all result in a change in the tone of the Conditional Use process, historically showing either a Puritanic, Temperance-minded hostility, or good-ol’-boy favoritism slant, in approving Cocktail Lounge Use.
Of course, what is needed, because no Music Venue is going to survive for long without a trust fund or alcohol sales helping the bottom line, is my suggestion from last June, in which I stated the need for at least one additional Use Category, “Live Music Venue” and additions to the language of the definitions in two or more existing Use Categories, among them, Outdoor Entertainment, Indoor Entertainment, and Art Workshop.
The language that need to be added to each of the existing or new Use Categories is:
“and may include the on-premise sale and consumption of alcohol”
Currently, “Restaurant”, and “Cocktail Lounge” are the only two Use Categories that include those words in their definition, and believe it or not, that is both the only problem, as well as what I believe to be the way out of this whole mess.
sincerely, peace, gary etie www.austincitypermits.com/blog
By The King
April 17, 2009 4:27 PM | Link to this
I love Stubb’s! Outdoor music is the best. They have great bands and their staff is excellent. I look forward to a bigger outdoor venue and indoors as well.
The city needs to realize they are a treasure and should not do anything that would jeopardize their business such as fines and restrictions due to going over 70 dB.
They are already way too accommodating when it comes to volume and hours they will have outdoor music.
By Scott Unzicker
April 17, 2009 4:45 PM | Link to this
No! Shut Stubb’s down! SHUT ALL outdoor venues down! Guero’s, Doc’s, Boticelli’s, Threadgill’s/AWH! When the city’s tax base starts to falter and we lose our reputation as live-music-friendly, only THEN will they realize and appreciate the absolute evisceration of the soul of Austin they’re undertaking! And if the council even THINKS about easing any noise ordinance restrictions for ACL this year or SxSW next year, I call for an immediate strike by the entire music community in Austin. They cannot hypocritically and greedily rake in the big money during these mega-festivals during those three or four weeks out of the year, and shut down the home grown base that has made Austin what it is the rest of the year! How about a class action restraint of trade suit? We bring in approximately $1 billion each year to Austin. The city is fat and happy to collect the revenue our talent generates. How about a little bit of support here, Will, Lee, Mike, Randi, Laura, Brewster, and Sheryl? I already personally know one musician who has had his gig at Doc’s cancelled tonight out of fear of the “noise police.” That gig was his car payment. He uses that car to transport his band and earn a living. The VERY least you out of touch cuckolds of developers could do is reevaluate the 70db limit. I’d love to hear some of you pro-ordinance people acknowledge that 70db is about as loud as a good conversation, and then go ON to justify how it’s realistic to perform music, even WITHOUT any kind of amplification, at that level. In short, you CAN’T.
By Scott Unzicker
April 17, 2009 4:54 PM | Link to this
Hey, just noticed it’s MC who wrote this. How about it, man? You came out in favor of shutting down Freddie’s place. To be philosophically consistent, you MUST be in favor of shutting down Stubb’s, right? I await your cogent, intelligent response with baited breath.
By Bubba_fett
April 17, 2009 4:58 PM | Link to this
Why don’t they outlaw Santa Clause, sex, and the Easter Bunny, too while they’re at it?
By Michael Corcoran
April 17, 2009 5:25 PM | Link to this
Really, Scott? You don’t know the difference between Stubb’s and Freddie’s Place?
By Jacob
April 17, 2009 5:27 PM | Link to this
Have any of you ever been to downtown Dallas or Houston. It’s like a ghost town with zero personality. Is that what we want? Anyone who moves to that Red River district should put up with the music or move. Music is the soul of Austin.
By CH
April 17, 2009 5:43 PM | Link to this
what’s the difference between Freddies Place and Stubbs Corcoran?
well several, for sure.
one important one being that Freddie’s Place used to support LOCAL MUSICIANS.
and Stubbs put on shows for big touring bands.
remember local musicians? and how they used to be an important part of this town? how do you expect them to get by when the few places that used to pay them don’t let them play anymore.
this town is quickly becoming a bad joke. i wish Corcoran and all the complainers would move out to the burbs and listen to their ipods cranking out the newest hit band according to Spin or Rolling Stone. Actually suburbs might be too close still…please keep going further up 35 please, on up to Dallas i’m sure you can find a nice, quiet home, with no ambience and no music nearby. Oh, don’t worry, you can still catch the popular bands of the moment at the House of Blues and the handful of music clubs there, so that you can still pretend to be a ‘music lover’.
By Mikeys pacifier
April 17, 2009 5:48 PM | Link to this
Michael Corcoran is hacked off the music rattles his rv. How he can blog about noise with all that racket? Keep on truckin’ Mikey
By Scott Unzicker
April 17, 2009 5:49 PM | Link to this
Michael - According to the city’s current permitting process, there’s NO difference between the venues. Consequently, until such time as Stubb’s reapplies and is approved for the venue-appropriate permit, they should not be allowed to violate the 70db limit. Equal application of the law and all that. In practicality, yes, I recognize that Stubb’s is really an outdoor amphitheater whose main purpose in life is the public performance of music. I’m attempting to use the city’s own ordinance as a double-edged sword, to use a cliche. I want to draw attention to the fact that the downtown area, South Congress, and Red River corridors are the mainstays of live music in Austin, and this seemingly capricious enforcement of what any reasonable, knowledgeable person would consider a ridiculously low noise threshold is both suspicious and seriously damages a core group’s ability to make a living. Of COURSE there should be ordinances regulating hours of performance, volume levels, etc. What I don’t understand is “why now”? Why has the city council bolstered its efforts to enforce these statutes? It’s simply a matter of asking “who benefits the most”? I feel that by hitting the city squarely in the only place it really seems to care about, its wallet, can we (meaning the musician community in Austin who cares about OUR wallets)draw appropriate attention to what I and many consider a serious degradation of the very soul of Austin. How about it, man? Do you want the artists, musicians, and writers who were, I believe, the most responsible in making Austin the attractive, vibrant city it is, or do you want it in the laps of the benign, milquetoast, greedheaded developers and politicians we see it slipping into on an almost daily basis? You’re an established writer. I’m just a freelance nobody. Use your position to help musicians and those who are the foundations of what make this city an oasis in a sea of banality. Please.
By stubbs 4000
April 17, 2009 5:53 PM | Link to this
i agree there’s a big difference between freddie’s and stubb’s. unfortuntaley the new 2000-person venue at the W hotel booked by livenation will take away a bunch of stubbs’ business in any event. that’s why stubbs needs to expand to 4000 and take the shows now being booked at austin music hall. then we can turn the austin music hall site into condos or apts. really, would anyone shed a tear over that?
By Yeah, Scott, shut up
April 17, 2009 6:26 PM | Link to this
Yeah Scott, don’t you realize that Michael Corcoran likes Stubbs but doesn’t like Freddie’s? Can’t you tell the difference?
In truth, the better question to ask would have been about his double standard between Shady Grove and Freddie’s. That answer of course is that he likes Shady Grove but not Freddie’s.
By White Tiger
April 17, 2009 7:11 PM | Link to this
What happened to the olde days when downtown was the place for Live Music? Bruce Todd decided that people should live, work, and spend in their neighborhood. Bad Idea. All the fakes that want to live in downtown for the ambience have chased the ambience away. The same thing on a higher level is how everyone came to Austin for the way of life and in the meantime ruined it.
By D
April 17, 2009 7:51 PM | Link to this
Lets see… buy a 500k condo in downtown to be near things… then complain about the noise once one is there? Weird.
By Keep Austin LOUD
April 17, 2009 7:53 PM | Link to this
Why is it that we keep having businesses shut down due to new picky neighbors. We used to have a cool outdoor live music venue in south Austin. Metallica once rocked out to a crowd of thousands where a Walmart currently stands. It was replaced by the retail cess pool because a bunch of people built houses next to an outdoor amphitheatre known for loud music, and promptly began complaining about the noise. Face it people, Austin’s claim to fame is its music scene. That is what makes this place so much different from (and better than) other cities in Texas. We are slowly pushing live music out in favor of yuppies who want Austin to be like Fort Worth - a big town full of cookie-cutter box stores and bland nightlife. When will it end?
By Bach
April 17, 2009 8:46 PM | Link to this
4K outdoor and a 1,500 indoor venue? Is that all? Jeeze, y’all are soooo popular and such an important part of the Austin ScEnE and a major MuSiC VenUE, why not go for broke? How about a gazillion seat venue where you can pack ‘em in and pretend? Lets tell folks the traffic and herding is worth it… I mean, like wow, we’re terminally hip… wow…
Stubbs lost it aloong time ago… when it was in Lubbock…
By Mike
April 17, 2009 8:55 PM | Link to this
Stubbs 4000, do you really think that Live Nation will take that much business away from Stubbs. Remember, C3 books Stubbs and C3 is just as powerful, especially in this town. And not to get all sentimental, but once upon a time when it opened in 1996 Stubbs actually took a lot of acts from Liberty Lunch. Competition happens all the time and most of the time it is better for consumers.
By Spell Checker
April 17, 2009 10:06 PM | Link to this
If it is on a flood plane….does that mean it is destined to take off?
By The Corcoran
April 17, 2009 11:36 PM | Link to this
Listen Scott, I’m the blogger here who has a RV, do you? I know what’s up with the music scene in this town. What are you some sort of guitar player or singer? eh
Let’s break it down easy for ya:
Shady Grove = Happening place where I like to namedrop and let it be known I’m a Statesman blogger. I gotta admit, had a few free drinks and snacks here and there. Bravo to those cool cats!
Freddies Place = not so much- haven’t got one free drink or bite to eat-dang musicians
RV = That’s right baby! I got me a weekend RV and you don’t! Silver Lake here I come!!! Keep the music down, my rv rattles a bit
By SamIam
April 18, 2009 12:56 AM | Link to this
Shut that dump down! Most of the so-called Live Music is garbage. Have you ever walked down 6th or Red River and listened to the inaudible gunk that spews into the streets. I say fine the heck out of them and shut’em all down for any violation. We need to get back to church and pray we don’t all go to hell!
By Scott Unzicker
April 18, 2009 2:50 AM | Link to this
We’re getting off topic here. If the gestapo - I mean APD - is going to strictly enforce the 70db limit for restaurants with live music, then it should do it for ALL venues that fall under that umbrella - ESPECIALLY Stubb’s. Come on, MC, I’ve yet to hear an intelligent, cogent retort to my questions and assertions from above. Let’s hear it, big guy.
By tom
April 18, 2009 10:36 AM | Link to this
Mike is correct, Stubbs bled Liberty Lunch and time and competition march on, Stubbs is not an Austin icon, just a sucessful business, just like Las Manitas was not the culinary soul of Austin, just a good restaurant. We need to loosen up people, enjoy clubs and restaurants for what they are, and remember downtown Austin is not a cathedral, just a business district, if live music pays the bills, don’t kill it.
By Warm beer and Slow Service
April 18, 2009 1:42 PM | Link to this
I like Freddie’s for the warm beer and slow service.
By stubbs4000
April 18, 2009 2:37 PM | Link to this
mike, not really, i agree it would seem that C3 has a lot of pull here, it’s just interesting that stubbs announced their expansion plans around the time the venue at the W was announced.
D, as far as i can tell, it’s generally not the condo dwellers complaining about music. there are no condos around freddie’s that i ca think of and the new buildings near stubbs are apartments, not condos. is there another situation you were thinking of?
By Greg
April 18, 2009 2:40 PM | Link to this
This is an odd town for sure. I recently checked the Threadgills website and read about the history of the place and how Kenneth Threadgill started it all from a gas station in the late 30’s from which it grew into a thriving place for music and musicians. But, that was when Austin was a relatively small town and not hooked up so much to high tech and condos downtown. Same goes for Antone’s, Cliff Antone started that club in one of the roughest parts of Austin because he loved the blues. Period. From places like this has come the history of Austin as the “Live Music Capitol of the World” but you have to realize we don’t have people like Kenneth Threadgill or Cliff Antone around anymore, they were just good human beings who loved the music and wanted a place for everyone to both play and hear it. Unless city leaders wake up and realize that it’s all going away soon and you can bet it will, the only entertainment the trust fund babies will have is movie theaters and Starbucks.
By Scott Unzicker
April 18, 2009 2:53 PM | Link to this
So, unless there’s a problem with the comments on this thing, I’ve still not heard from MC. How do you address my points from above that, according to the city’s permitting process, there is NO difference between Freddie’s and Stubb’s? Again, if there’s a problem with the comments engine, forgive this double post. There have been exactly 19 comments for the last 16 hours or so. How about it, Mikey?
By chris
April 18, 2009 5:10 PM | Link to this
GO HOME JOHNNY DALLAS!!!
By Kat
April 18, 2009 7:28 PM | Link to this
Stubb’s is my favorite live music venue in town and I’m so excited to hear about the expansion, although I wish it would be bigger. I love the outdoor feel and the faint smell of barbecue in the night air. This city is begging for a large venue—we’re supposed to be the “live music capital of the world”, and all the big acts bypass us for Houston, San Antonio, or Dallas.
By Michael Corcoran
April 19, 2009 11:23 AM | Link to this
Scott- As veternam permit-puller Gary Etie pointed out, Stubb’s is in the Central Business District, while Freddie’s is not.
I’ve added a link to the original “What’s up with Stubb’s?” post that has a City Council transcript that addresses restaurant/ cocktail lounge classifications.
The intent of the noise ordinance limiting outdoor music at restaurants to 70 dB is not to put world known music venues out of business, so as Etie says “it should be relatively easy” to fix whatever sound issues Stubb’s may have. As for restaurants in residential neighborhoods who put loud music on the patio despite complaints from homeowners who’ve been there long before the thumpus began… their nights of disturbing the peace are hopefully over for good.
By Less Is More Sometimes
April 19, 2009 1:13 PM | Link to this
Kat, please don’t wish for a bigger expansion than they are already planning. Even now when Stubbs is sold out at 2500 or so, it is fairly packed. Waller Creek and city streets prevent Stubbs from expanding the land’s square footage. Building the new indoor building it can go vertical for some extra capacity. But putting 4000 into an outdoor show will be tight, especially if the 1500 capacity indoor venue on site is operating simultaneously.
If you want an outdoor venue with significantly more size than Stubbs you won’t find any land for that near downtown and once you leave the CBD you must provide parking so you’ll need land for that too.
By Scott Unzicker
April 19, 2009 1:49 PM | Link to this
So, Michael… We’re going to interpret and enforce the “intent” of the law, and not the letter, eh? How convenient. Gary ALSO said, and I’m quoting YOUR article here, “that according to its 1996 building permit, Stubb’s is classified as a restaurant and therefore the 70 dB code that shut down live music at Freddie’s Place technically applies.” As it presently stands in the permitting process, WHERE you are doesn’t matter - it’s the establishment’s classification that does. Stubb’s is presently classified as a “restaurant” for sound permitting purposes. Until such time as they reapply and are approved for the new permit, shut them down. Equal application of the law. How am I wrong here? I’m on the right side of the ordinance (for a change). Do you acknowledge that 70 decibels is a) about as loud as an animated person to person conversation, and b) an impossibly low noise threshold at which to perform live music? Address my questions above regarding the suspicious timing of the new-found zeal of the council to enforce this ridiculous ordinance, and the serious impact it’s ALREADY having on very musicians that make this town so applealing. Should the city relax the ordinance during SxSoWhat and/or ACL? If they do, do you find that inconsistent with fairness but consistent with greed? Also, why did it take soooooo long for the comments to be posted here? Let’s do lunch at Shady Grove. I’ll treat.
By gary etie - austincitypermits.com/blog
April 21, 2009 9:57 AM | Link to this
Michael,
The operative word here is “relatively”. I don’t want to give the impression that ANY Restaurant that faces a Change of Use Permit, as one of the ways to achieve a 85 dB limit on Outdoor music, is going to get off easy. Each one is going to face a newly adopted 2003 Building Code, and an ever evolving Permit process, with classic brick walls, like Parking, and Restrooms, high on the list of dead ends for many Restaurants, if they have to seek a Change of Use Permit.
By Scott Unzicker
April 21, 2009 5:31 PM | Link to this
There you go, Mike… not even your beloved Stubb’s is going to “get off easy.” Now how about responding directly to the assertions in my several posts above? To wit: 70db is an unreasonable threshold at which to perform live music. Stubb’s, under its current permit, is subject to that 70db limit, and hence, should be cited/shut down/have one of its staff arrested, per the ordinance that applies to ALL such venues under that permit. The recent attention paid to this ordinance is suspicious, and the council’s zealotry to enforce it is also suspicious. PLEASE address my points directly. I’ve shot down your previous argument with words from your own article, citing your own source. Have the stones to, PLEASE, respond directly to my assertions. Failing that, I’ll consider you to have lost both your argument and credibility, which immediately undermines any and all future pieces you’ll write on this subject (presuming you maintain your current stance on the issue).
By gary etie - austincitypermits.com/blog
April 21, 2009 9:04 PM | Link to this
Latest Update - There is going to be a spate of Cocktail Lounge approvals, for Restaurants in the Central Business District (CBD), as well as Restaurants Zoned CS-1, that are also in the Waterfront Overlay.
The key is that a Conditional Use Permit from the Planning Commission is not required in these two situations, making it an administrative decision, as to the requirements for the issuance of the Certificate of Occupancy for the Use “Cocktail Lounge”, for the outdoor area.