Home > Liquid > Archives > 2009 > October > 08 > Entry
Brooklyn’s Garrett Oliver coming to town
An abbreviated version of this interview is running in the American-Statesman’s Bock ‘n’ Ale Ya column Wednesday, but I’m giving you lucky sots the full version here — and two days early to boot.
Dapper Garrett Oliver is a beer and food sophisticate. The brewmaster of the Brooklyn Brewery and author of “The Brewmaster’s Table” has lectured extensively on traditional beer and food and was way ahead of the curve on the subject of beer paired with fine dining. So when he comes to town it’s a big deal, and he’s got a full schedule this weekend. On Thursday, he has no fewer than three events: • A book signing from 2 to 3:30 p.m. at Central Market (4001 N. Lamar Blvd.). • A beer and cheese pairing at the Hotel San Jose (1316 S. Congress Ave) from 4 to 6 p.m. $15. • A beer dinner at Olivia (2043 S. Lamar Blvd.) at 7 p.m. $75. Reservations: 804-2700
On Sunday at 7:30 p.m. at the Alamo Drafthouse Lake Creek (13729 U.S. 183 N.), he’ll host a $50 four-course dinner with multiple fine offerings from the brewery.
We caught up with Oliver via e-mail as he was traveling in Japan to chat about the state of brewing, a certain controversial New Yorker article that attempted to make him and Dogfish Head’s Sam Calagione adversaries and why beer just doesn’t get the respect it deserves. Austin American-Statesman: You’re almost as much about great food as you are about quality craft beer. But the move away from meat-and-potatoes/food as fuel toward gourmet offerings began decades before the revival in small breweries, at least in the States. If you agree that’s the case, why the time lag?
Garrett Oliver: Greetings from Ibaraki, Japan! Actually, when you think about it, the food revival and beer revival have been remarkably concurrent. New Albion Brewing opened in California in the late 1970’s, just as Alice Waters was bringing Chez Panisse onto the scene. Sierra Nevada opened in 1980; in 1980, sushi was still exotic and the number one condiment in the U.S. was still ketchup, not salsa. Both movements - food and craft beer - have been pretty gradual. The high-end supermarkets typified by Whole Foods and Wegmans have really only revved up in the last 5 - 10 years. One thing I will say as that no food or drink has been as thoroughly industrialized as beer was in the U.S. So craft beer had a very long climb back because beer had fallen so far when it comes to flavor and food interest.
AAS: What are your thoughts on the Texas beer scene?
GO: It seems pretty vibrant to me. When we launched Brooklyn beer in Texas, I don’t think any of us though that our strong bottle -conditioned beer, Brooklyn Local 1, was going to be among the most popular. We’ve sent whole trailers of Local 1 to Texas - at one point Texas was definitely depriving New York City of the beer! It certainly seems that Austin is a focal point of a lot of good things, so hope we can help Austin “stay weird.”
AAS: Aside from your time spent in England, where does your brewing philosophy come from?
GO: My brewing philosophy is essentially a chef’s philosophy - try to make something creative and beautiful out of honest ingredients. And always brew beers that you want to drink - and nothing else.
AAS: In the New Yorker piece last November about “extreme beer,” you sort of came off - forgive me - as Felix Unger to Dogfish Head’s Sam Calagione’s Oscar Madison. You called DFH 120 “unbalanced and shrieking” and said you even found the term “extreme beer” “irredeemably pejorative.” One could argue that yours is a fairly restrictive perspective, almost like Wynton Marsalis’ stuffy view of what is and isn’t jazz. Isn’t there room for crazy beer that challenges people, even if some of the efforts fail?
GO: I was very disappointed by that article. Basically I was set up. The author cut-and-pasted my comments out of context to try to inject some dramatic tension into the article. The fact is, I pour Dogfish Head’s beers in tastings all the time, and we are good friends with those guys. We just made a beer infused with bacon, and our current release is a barrel-aged beer called “The Manhattan Project” - it literally tastes like a Manhattan! So we’re anything but stuffy or pedantic. What I actually said was that I love a lot of very strong hoppy beers - Pliny the Elder from Russian River is a great example. It’s 10% and the hops will blow your head off, but it’s really nice. We have been making 10% beers since most brewers were in junior high school - I launched Black Chocolate Stout in 1994. But although I love a lot of DFH beers, I don’t like their 120. I also did say that the term - and it’s important that we’re talking about the term itself - “extreme beer” is irredeemably pejorative. And I stand by that statement. Transfer the term to “extreme food”, “extreme wine”, or “extreme cheese”, and it sounds pretty silly, yes? Well, we are artisans and I think we should have fun, but we ought not to make our profession look bad. The term “extreme beer” makes us sound like school children. It’s hard enough getting people to understand what we’ve got to offer.
AAS: Belgian-style ales really seem to have gotten a foothold in recent years among American micros and craft brewers. What stylistic trends do you see on the horizon?
GO: Barrel-aging and sour beers are really taking hold, and becoming a part of the American brewing lexicon. The level of skill out there is just tremendous, and as I travel I see that American brewing is now widely respected worldwide. That’s very cool - it wasn’t always the case.
AAS: And speaking of crazy beers, how’d that bacon beer turn out?
GO: Excellently! We debuted it at a magnificent beer dinner at Thomas Keller’s NY restaurant Per Se. We are very happy with that beer, though it’s only an experiment. We made 20 cases and it was hard work. But it does taste just like bacon with a hint of bourbon. If that’s wrong, I don’t want to be right.
AAS: In terms of fine dining, wine seems to trump beer even though beer goes better with a variety of cuisines than wine. Why that persistent bias? Why do so many restaurants have a 30-page wine list and four beers?
GO: Ever since the Norman Conquest (when France took over England in 1066), English-speaking people have had a strange inferiority complex towards the French. Wine became both aspirational and intimidating - it became connected to class and to money. Now, if you go to Italy, you’ll see none of that attitude. which is one reason why the Italian brewing scene is so cool right now - they suddenly have almost 300 breweries doing some great stuff. And people embrace what they’re doing. American restaurants have been slow - they are way, way behind the American consumer. It’s very foolish of them - restaurants that have great beer lists get better customers who come back more often. And they make more money.
AAS: In terms of leveling the playing field between the big boys and operations such as Brooklyn, if you could wave your magic wand and make a single change, what would it be?
GO: The real answer to that question is “inside baseball”. Personally, all I’ve ever wanted was for the rules of the road - the law - to be enforced. The big guys don’t play by those rules, and that’s unfair. That’s okay, though - we’re still winning. I’d much rather be us than them. The decline of industrial beer is inevitable. People have taste.
AAS: A lot of people say that the best beer that’s ever been brewed is being made right now in the U.S. Whether that’s the case or not, what can we learn from brewers in other countries?
GO: “Best” is a very strong word. I do think we have the best and most exciting beer culture in the world, partially because we have our great beers and also everyone else’s. But we can learn a lot from brewers in other countries. The British brewers are masters of subtlety - they make very light ales that are flavorful and elegant. The German brewers are brilliantly consistent, and they still brew most of the best lager beers in the world. The Belgians still make some of the most complex beers in the world. So I would not go around claiming that we’re “best”. The United States now makes wonderful beers, though, and I think we have more fun doing it than anyone else.
AAS: Historically, has beer always been viewed as less refined than wine? If so, can we blame France for that?
GO: We have only ourselves to blame, but we’re getting over it. The fact is that most wine and most beer consumed in America is still industrial. But when people think of wine, they think of the 10% of wines at the top of the wine world. When people think of beer, they think of the 90% at the bottom of the beer world. Most of that is because of heavy advertising. The fact is that beer has a far wider range of flavor than wine does. It’s not even close. Beer is better able to match the complexity and diversity of American food. Many people remain unfamiliar with real beer. Many of the best beers in the world cost less than a double latte at Starbucks. That’s a minor miracle, and one that can make your life a little better every day. And makes craft brewing a fine profession to be a part of.
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